The challenges women face in pursuing an international STEM education abroad

女性在国外追求国际STEM教育所面临的挑战

Every month, Study International invites you to a conversation with an international student, graduate or professor about the beauty, boldness and benefits of studying abroad.

每个月，Study International都会邀请您与国际学生，研究生或教授就出国留学的美丽，大胆和好处进行对话。

Today’s episode is about women in STEM (that’s Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics) — specifically, the challenges women face in pursuing an international STEM education. Our guest is Shahira Yasmin, a mechanical engineering graduate from Imperial College London and an advanced robotics graduate from Queen Mary University, London.

今天这期节目的主题是 STEM（即科学、技术、工程和数学）领域的女性--特别是女性在接受国际 STEM 教育时面临的挑战。我们的嘉宾是 Shahira Yasmin，她毕业于伦敦帝国理工学院机械工程专业，同时也是伦敦玛丽皇后大学机器人专业的高材生。

Before leaving her home country Malaysia for some of the top universities in the world, she’s never worked with circuits or soldiering. She was in an all-girls school, which was more concerned about funnelling students into home economics lessons. During her undergraduate degree, she had only four female lecturers and 19 female colleagues in a class of around 160 people. Yasmin was often the only woman in the room — an experience filled with its own set of unique challenges, which she overcame and can now offer important insights and advice for anyone seeking to become part of tomorrow’s women in STEM.

在离开家乡马来西亚前往世界顶尖大学深造之前，她从未接触过电路或士兵。她就读的是一所女子学校，学校更关心的是如何把学生送进家政课。在她攻读本科学位期间，全班约 160 人中只有四位女讲师和 19 位女同事。雅思敏常常是教室里唯一的女性--这种经历本身就充满了一系列独特的挑战，但她克服了这些挑战，现在可以为那些希望成为未来 STEM 领域女性一员的人提供重要的见解和建议。

Listen to “Extra Credit” wherever you get your podcasts. The transcript of this podcast is below. It’s not fully edited for grammar or spelling.

收听“额外学分”，无论你在哪里得到你的播客。这个播客的文字记录在下面。它没有完全编辑语法或拼写。

[MUSIC PLAYING]

[音乐播放]

Sofiya: Hi and welcome to “Extra Credit” where we share notes on the latest on international higher education. I’m Sofiya.

Sofiya：大家好，欢迎来到“额外学分”，我们将在这里分享最新的国际高等教育信息。我叫索菲亚。

Thira: And I’m Thira.

我是Thira。

Sofiya: Today we’re looking at female students in STEM and the challenges that they face.

Sofiya：今天我们来看看STEM领域的女学生以及她们面临的挑战。

Thira: What does it take to survive in a man’s world? According to UNESCO, only 35% of STEM students in higher education worldwide are women. Only one in five women are currently employed in tech. Engineering remains the most male-dominated STEM field with an estimated 40% of women with engineering degrees, who either quit or never entered the profession at all.

Thira：在男人的世界里生存需要什么？根据联合国教科文组织（UNESCO）的数据，在全球高等教育中，只有 35% 的 STEM 学生是女性。目前只有五分之一的女性受雇于科技行业。工程学仍然是男性占主导地位最严重的 STEM 领域，估计有 40% 拥有工程学学位的女性要么放弃，要么根本就没有进入这个行业。

Sofiya: So today, we’re asking: what does it take for women to succeed in STEM? We have with us today Shahira Yasmin, a mechanical engineering graduate from Imperial College London, and advanced robotics graduate from Queen Mary University, London. She’s working right now as an intelligent automation consultant for an industry-leading company. Hi Shahira, how are you?

Sofiya： 今天，我们要问：女性在 STEM 领域取得成功需要什么？今天我们请到了毕业于伦敦帝国理工学院机械工程专业和伦敦玛丽皇后大学高级机器人专业的沙希拉-雅思敏（Shahira Yasmin）。她现在在一家行业领先的公司担任智能自动化顾问。沙希拉，你好吗？

Shahira: Hi, I’m well, thank you. Thanks for having me today.

Shahira：嗨，我很好，谢谢。谢谢你今天邀请我

Sofiya: Thanks for joining us. So your educational journey so far has been centred around science. Did you take to science naturally growing up?

苏菲娅：谢谢你加入我们。所以你的教育之旅到目前为止一直围绕着科学。你是自然成长的吗？

Shahira: I think so. For the most part, I was always curious about how things worked. So I would devour encyclopaedias, and even when it came to secondary school, I really enjoyed the science subjects. I think when it came to Additional Math in Form Five, I was less passionate about it compared to other subjects. So I need a bit more work there. But for the most, yes.

Shahira：我想是的。在大多数情况下，我总是好奇事情是如何运作的。所以我会如饥似渴地阅读百科全书，甚至到了中学，我真的很喜欢科学课程。我想，当谈到中五的附加数学时，与其他科目相比，我对它的热情较低。所以我还需要多做点工作。但对大多数人来说是的。

Sofiya: I see. So, did you notice growing up that there was a gender bias in these subjects?

苏菲娅：我明白了。那么，你有没有注意到在这些科目中存在性别偏见？

Shahira: I went to an all-girls school. So I cannot say that I did initially, no. I think I realised that a little bit more when I started applying for university and I made my interest in engineering known. And at that point, I received a lot of pushback from people around me who had simply never seen me going into that field before, despite always being inclined towards science and math.

我上的是女子学校。所以我不能说我一开始就这么做了，没有。我想当我开始申请大学时，我意识到了这一点，我对工程学的兴趣众所周知。在这一点上，我收到了很多来自我周围的人的反对，他们以前从未见过我进入这个领域，尽管我一直倾向于科学和数学。

Sofiya: So you decided to go into engineering? How did you make your aspirations a reality?

Sofiya：所以你决定进入工程学？你是如何让你的愿望成为现实的？

Shahira: Well, to begin with, it started with applying for different scholarships. I realised that that would be essentially a key to the freedom of choosing what you want to do, I suppose. I think there was a lot of pushback in the beginning, because I think I was expected to go for a medical scholarship. But I wound up choosing one in mechanical engineering instead.

沙希拉：嗯，首先是申请不同的奖学金。我意识到，我想这是自由选择你想做的事情的关键所在。我觉得一开始会有很多人反对，因为我觉得我应该申请医学奖学金。但我最终选择了机械工程专业。

Thira: And you chose a subject that’s very male-dominated, right? The statistics say that it has among the lowest number of female students. So to put this into perspective, only 14% to 16% of women are mechanical engineers in North America. And the numbers are not very encouraging in the rest of the world. So why Mechanical Engineering, Shahira?

提拉 你选择了一个男性占主导地位的学科，对吗？统计数据显示，该专业的女生人数是最少的。从这个角度来看，在北美，只有 14% 到 16% 的女性是机械工程师。而在世界其他地区，这一数字也不容乐观。那么，为什么是机械工程，沙希拉？

Shahira: This might sound a little random, but to be honest, I realised it was on the table during the application process, when one of the subjects you could choose to get a scholarship for was mechanical engineering, which prompted me to do more research on what that field entailed, what it looks like. And in my Quick Search, I realised that Tony Stark was essentially in mechanical engineering. From then on, I was just basically like: “Okay, I want to be Tony Stark.”

沙希拉：这听起来可能有点随意，但老实说，我是在申请过程中意识到这一点的，当时你可以选择获得奖学金的科目之一是机械工程，这促使我做了更多的研究，了解这个领域的内容和它的样子。在快速搜索中，我发现托尼-斯塔克基本上就是学机械工程的。从那时起 我就想 "好吧，我想成为托尼・斯塔克"

Thira: [LAUGHS] That’s wonderful, right? Because I think most of us can attest that Tony Stark, how he’s presented and how he’s marketed is very much catered to boys. And to see that, you know, women, a young lady, encouraged by Tony Stark to pick up mechanical engineering shows that hey, perhaps there’s a demographic missing here when we’re marketing Tony Stark to the world.

太好了，对吧？因为我想我们大多数人都能证明 托尼-斯塔克的形象和营销方式 都非常迎合男孩的口味 而看到托尼-斯塔克鼓励一位年轻女性去学习机械工程，这说明我们在向全世界宣传托尼-斯塔克时，或许还缺少了一个人群。

Shahira: I think definitely my blind optimism going into engineering helped a lot because I wasn’t aware of stereotypes. And when they were presented to me, I didn’t really care or believe them.

Shahira：我认为我对工程学的盲目乐观确实帮助很大，因为我没有意识到刻板印象。当他们呈现在我面前时，我并不真的关心或相信他们。

Thira: So Shahira, you went into university fresh-eyed and optimistic. What did you expect going in into Imperial College? It is such a big university, one of the best and top-ranked universities worldwide. So what did you expect going in? And what was the reality like once you arrived at the university?

蒂拉：那么，沙希拉，你进入大学时，眼光新鲜，乐观。你想进帝国理工学院干什么？这是一所很大的大学，是世界上最好和排名最高的大学之一。你想进去干什么？当你进入大学后，现实是什么样的？

Shahira: I think my expectations going in were honestly quite naive. I was just really excited about being able to live in London, becoming my own person. I don’t think I was thinking too deeply about what the actual university experience would be like. And when I did arrive, I suppose I immediately got the impression of being immersed in the role of engineering in a good way. Because in the very first week, they exposed us to some hands-on aspects from things like doing technical drawings to things like learning how to machine parts in the workshop — it was things I had not done before at any point in my educational history and things that just felt cool or interesting for being different.

沙希拉：说实话，我对自己的期望很天真。我只是对能够在伦敦生活、成为我自己感到非常兴奋。我想我并没有太深入地考虑过真正的大学生活会是什么样子。当我到达学校后，我想我马上就会有一种沉浸在工程学角色中的良好印象。因为在第一周，他们就让我们接触了一些实践方面的东西，从绘制技术图纸到学习如何在车间里加工零件--这些都是我在教育史上从未做过的事情，而且因为与众不同而感觉很酷或很有趣。

Sofiya:Very Tony Stark.

苏菲娅：很像托尼·斯塔克。

Thira: Yeah, very Tony Stark. Did you feel daunted in the beginning over the fact that, you know, you did not have the experience coming in doing, you know, drawing machinery and all that? Was there some sort of nervousness behind that? Or was it just like oh, all these things I’ve never tried before, like, you were happy [to try]?

是的，非常像托尼·斯塔克。一开始你有没有感到气馁，因为你没有经验来做，你知道，绘图机械和所有这些？这背后是不是有什么紧张？或者就像哦，所有这些我从来没有尝试过的事情，就像，你很高兴[尝试]？

Shahira: I think I was definitely very excited. I’m not sure I was nervous. I might be misremembering. But I think I just really enjoy being given the chance to try all of these.

Shahira：我想我肯定非常兴奋。我不确定我有没有紧张。我可能记错了。但我想我真的很享受有机会尝试所有这些。

Sofiya: Oh, that’s wonderful. So how many women did you see in your department, where there are many female lecturers?

苏菲娅：哦，那太好了。那么你在你们系里看到了多少女性呢，那里有很多女性讲师？

Shahira: I think throughout my entire undergraduate at least, I had three to four female lecturers, and about 19 female colleagues in a class of about 160.

Shahira：我想在我整个本科期间，至少有三到四位女性讲师，在一个大约160人的班级中有大约19位女性同事。

Sofiya: Wow, 19 females.

苏菲娅：哇，19个女人。

Shahira: You would often be the only girl in the room.

Shahira：你经常是房间里唯一的女孩。

Thira: How did that make you feel in the beginning, at least? Like seeing yourself as the only woman in the room?

蒂拉：至少一开始你是什么感觉？就像把自己当成房间里唯一的女人？

Shahira: I’m not sure the implications or impact or anything really affected me, at least in the beginning. It’s not when you start to notice trends anyway. And you’re just excited and for the most, people are welcoming and eager to get on with their own studies and to welcome you into your professional development.

Shahira：我不确定这些暗示或影响或任何事情是否真的影响了我，至少在一开始是这样。这不是你开始注意到趋势的时候。你只是很兴奋，最重要的是，人们欢迎并渴望继续自己的学习，并欢迎你进入你的专业发展。

Sofiya: So did you have any specific memories or experiences that stick out in your mind where you felt you or another woman was being discriminated against?

Sofiya：那么你有没有什么特别的记忆或经历，让你觉得你或另一个女人受到了歧视？

Shahira: I think I started noticing it from year two onwards. It’s things like not being taken at your word, even when you know, you have the correct answer and you’re trying to explain it to someone. You know like someone might be asking a question in a lab as you’re working, and you could explain it to them but you’ve noticed that they would only accept it when a male peer echoes the same answer. More concrete examples would be, for example, when I was at a mechatronics lab, and I completed the circuit. I was certain that what I had done was according to the instructions, and correct because I had it checked. But I was in a group with two other guys and one of them just took apart my work without even checking whether the circuit I had assembled would be correct, because he just assumed it would be wrong.

沙希拉：我想我是从二年级开始注意到这个问题的。比如，即使你知道自己的答案是正确的，并试图向别人解释时，别人也不会相信你的话。比如，在实验室工作时，有人可能会问一个问题，你可以向他们解释，但你注意到，他们只有在男性同伴回答同样的答案时才会接受。更具体的例子是，例如，我在机电一体化实验室完成了电路。我确信自己是按照说明完成的，而且是正确的，因为我已经检查过了。但是，我和另外两个人分在一组，其中一个人甚至没有检查我组装的电路是否正确，就直接拆开了我的作品，因为他认为这是错的。

And sometimes you notice it not just directed towards yourself, but towards other women. For example, we had a TA in a lab who presented in a more feminine way. And bear in mind that every TA there is qualified. They have been screened to help you. They’ve all got the same lab manual. So there’s no reason to actually discriminate against someone. However, there were instances where when I would put my hand up to ask for the TA to come over and either inspect our work or ask her a question, they would tell me to put my hand down because if she comes over to help us, we can’t ask the male TA to come over. And I noticed that this did not happen to another one of our TAs who was presenting in a less stereotypically feminine way, you know, she wasn’t wearing makeup or did not have long hair, for example.

有时你会发现，这不仅是针对你自己，也针对其他女性。例如，我们实验室有一位助教的表现方式就比较女性化。请记住，那里的每一位助教都是合格的。他们都是经过筛选来帮助你的。他们都有同样的实验手册。因此，没有理由真正歧视某个人。不过，在有些情况下，当我举手要求助教过来检查我们的工作或向她提问时，他们会让我把手放下，因为如果她过来帮助我们，我们就不能请男助教过来。我注意到，这种情况并没有发生在我们的另一位助教身上，因为她的表现方式并不那么女性化，比如，她没有化妆，也没有留长发。

Thira: It’s very frustrating, right? Not only do you have to deal with the environment itself, but also your appearance. That adds a lot of additional pressure on top of that. So did you ever deal with that personally, where kind of like your gender aside, like your appearances affect how male colleagues or male classmates treat you in your work?

蒂拉：这很令人沮丧，对吧？你不仅要面对环境本身，还要面对自己的外表。这给你增加了很多额外的压力。那你个人有没有遇到过这种情况，比如说你的性别，比如说你的外表会影响到男同事或男同学在工作中对你的态度？

Shahira: I think there’s always that sort of knowledge at the front of your mind that you should appear somewhat blended in, I suppose. But I’m not sure I adhere to that. I very much want to take up space. So whether it’s things like having a pink manicure or wearing skirts, I do that just because I think it’s time for STEM to be associated with femininity, or at least for people to see that you do have women working in STEM.

沙希拉：我想，在你的脑海中总会有这样一种认识，那就是你应该显得有些融入其中。但我不确定自己是否坚持了这一点。我很想占据空间。所以，不管是修粉色指甲还是穿裙子，我都会这么做，因为我觉得是时候让 STEM 与女性气质联系起来了，或者至少让人们看到，确实有女性在 STEM 领域工作。

Thira: Absolutely. Like there’s no rulebook that says that you cannot operate machinery with like pink manicure, right?

蒂拉：当然。就像没有规则手册说你不能用粉红色的指甲操作机器，对吧？

Sofiya: So what we’ve kind of noticed recently is a move towards setting quotas up to ensure that women are more included within certain projects, certain classroom activities and all that. Did you notice that at your university? I mean, like you were there, what, six years ago now?

Sofiya：所以我们最近注意到的是一种设置配额的趋势，以确保女性更多地参与某些项目，某些课堂活动等等。你在大学里注意到了吗？我是说，就像你六年前在那里一样？

Shahira: As far as I know, that was not the practice that my university. Some of us had approached the senior staff to determine that because, you know, we were told by some people that we might have just been there because of the quota. But it was clarified to us that no, we were there because of our own merit. And the sort of moves that they did put in place, were more things along the lines of subconscious bias training — where you essentially trained staff to identify their own subconscious biases that they might have against or for various demographics, which I think is positive, that could take towards leading bias away. The only closest thing I noticed that came to a quota was there was this effort to promote more women participating in STEM competitions. So essentially, you could participate if your group had at least one woman in it.

沙希拉 据我所知，我所在的大学不是这样做的。我们中的一些人曾找过高级职员来确定这一点，因为有些人告诉我们，我们可能只是因为配额才被录取的。但他们向我们澄清说，不，我们是因为自己的成绩才被录取的。他们所采取的措施，更多的是沿着潜意识偏见培训的思路进行的--你基本上是在培训员工，让他们识别自己潜意识中可能存在的针对或针对不同人群的偏见，我认为这是积极的，可以引导偏见消失。我注意到，唯一最接近配额的做法是，努力促进更多女性参与 STEM 竞赛。因此，从本质上讲，只要你所在的小组至少有一名女性，你就可以参赛。

Thira: And how did the male students take to this quota and this policy?

蒂拉：男生对这个配额和政策有什么反应？

Shahira: It was actually that competition that I think sparked off some of this conversation, because I’m not sure if they felt excluded, or if they sort of took offence to the idea of your group needing to have at least one woman. But it definitely seemed like even that small step had pushback from people who I thought of as open-minded and fair.

Shahira：实际上，我认为正是那场比赛引发了这次谈话，因为我不确定他们是否感到被排除在外，或者他们是否对你们团队至少需要一名女性的想法感到冒犯。但显然，即使是那一小步，也会受到那些我认为思想开放、公平的人的抵制。

Thira: Do you think that this added extra burden for the female students, where now they have to prove even more that, oh, I’m not here because of a quota, right? Like I’m here, because I am just as capable, if not more than the male students?

蒂拉：你认为这会不会给女学生增加额外的负担，她们现在必须证明，哦，我不是因为配额才来的，对吗？就像我在这里，因为我是一样的能力，如果不是比男学生？

Shahira: I think you would always carry that with you. Maybe not just in STEM, perhaps also in other fields. Obviously, there are going to be environments that are kinder towards eliminating that.

Shahira：我想你会一直带着它。也许不仅仅是在STEM领域，也许在其他领域也是如此。显然，会有更好的环境来消除这种情况。

Thira: Alright. Do you feel like there are certain traits that are stereotypically associated with women that are helpful in STEM and engineering?

Thira：好的。你是否觉得有一些与女性有关的刻板印象特征对STEM和工程学有帮助？

Shahira: I think so. Yes. Before I continue, I would like to just emphasise that I think any trait we talk about, obviously falls within a normal distribution in society. But I mean, if people are going to stereotyped, why not turn it on its head, right? So even things like being too sensitive, that’s essentially compassion or empathy, which can help you identify different problems that exist in society and how to solve them. And that’s usually one of the starting points really, towards innovation and creating new ideas. Also, things like having more diversity in general is especially important in STEM what with like the advent of AI involving so many different aspects of our life, and the need to introduce or regulate that by having more diversity, both in datasets and in the outcomes, and in the people who design them. Because they’ll be taking things like that into account, as well as other stereotypical traits, like let’s say, cooperation. And I often noticed at least that, whenever it came to moderating meetings or working in groups that had other women in it, they’re always so keen to participate, so organised, so on top of things. I really enjoyed working with other women within STEM. I think perhaps it’s because, as you say, they felt the need to sort of prove that they’re there because they deserve to.

沙希拉：我想是的。是的。在继续之前，我想强调一下，我认为我们谈论的任何特征，显然都属于社会的正常分布范围。但我的意思是，如果人们要定型，为什么不反其道而行之呢？因此，即使是过于敏感这样的事情，本质上也是一种同情心或同理心，它可以帮助你发现社会中存在的不同问题，以及如何解决这些问题。这通常是创新和创造新想法的起点之一。此外，在科学、技术、工程和数学领域，拥有更多的多样性也尤为重要，因为人工智能的出现涉及到我们生活的方方面面，需要通过在数据集、成果和设计人员方面拥有更多的多样性来引入或规范人工智能。因为他们会考虑到这样的事情，以及其他刻板的特质，比如说，合作。至少我经常注意到，每当主持会议或在有其他女性参与的小组中工作时，她们总是那么热衷于参与，那么有组织，那么事无巨细。我非常喜欢与 STEM 领域的其他女性一起工作。我想，这也许是因为，正如你所说的，她们觉得有必要证明她们在那里是因为她们理应在那里。

Sofiya: So you’ve experienced sort of like two different environments within two different universities, one at Imperial College and the other at Queen Mary. What would you have done differently with your first degree knowing what you do now?

Sofiya：所以你在两所不同的大学里经历了两种不同的环境，一所在帝国理工学院，另一所在玛丽皇后学院。如果你的第一个学位知道你现在在做什么，你会做什么不同的事情？

Shahira: So three things I think. One of which is pertinent to the environment. Firstly, I would have ensured, I suppose a better culture match for university. It’s things I didn’t even really give thought to when I was first starting out with applications. I just thought, oh: top university, my field, where is it based? London, great. But I never realised the importance of looking at that aspect, both as an international student and as a woman. And I think the second thing I would have done is, it’s so important to actively build an at-work and out-of-work support system, you know, through your friends, through keeping in touch with mentors, having collaborators. You don’t really realise the particular importance of this at that stage of your career. But I think it would have helped a lot more using support systems. They were probably available at both universities but I think whether it’s something like mental health or making a stronger network, it matters. And I think the third thing that could probably be generalised to most students is you have to view setbacks as learning experiences, not as failure, and not to allow them to define you, for example.

沙希拉：我认为有三件事。其中之一与环境有关。首先，我想我会确保大学文化更加匹配。这是我刚开始申请时根本没有考虑过的问题。我只是想，哦：一流大学，我的专业，它在哪里？伦敦，太好了。但我从来没有意识到，作为一名国际学生和女性，考虑这方面的因素有多么重要。我想我本该做的第二件事是，积极建立一个工作内外的支持系统非常重要，你知道，通过你的朋友，通过与导师保持联系，通过合作者。在你职业生涯的那个阶段，你并没有真正意识到这一点的重要性。但我认为，利用支持系统会有更大的帮助。两所大学可能都有支持系统，但我认为，无论是心理健康还是建立更强大的人际网络，这都很重要。我认为第三点或许可以推广到大多数学生身上，那就是你必须将挫折视为学习经历，而不是失败，不要让挫折来定义你。

Thira: Yeah, that’s great. I think you bring up a really important point about the environment. Especially when you’re fresh out of high school, I remember when I was choosing universities, nobody had talked about environment, everyone was always talking about results, which you’ve received are the best. And if you look at, you know, even websites, or like if you even if you go to counselling, education counselling, they will tell you the same thing, right? Most of it is about rankings, like you know, which has the best subject for you for the course that you want to do as your degree. There’s less emphasis on, okay, how does the environment match your learning style, like who you are or your personality? Like a lot of that matters, right? When we talk about women thriving in STEM, we also have to think about enabling conditions that allow them to, you know, to shine and to continue and to want to have that motivation to continue. Because we know that a lot of women actually drop out of STEM, right? They might enter STEM, but along the way, they burn out so quickly. Yeah, because of biases and all that. Do you feel that? You completed your undergraduate degree about like six years ago? So looking back now, do you feel that women are more supportive, within academia in STEM than when you first started out?

Thira: 是的，很好。我认为你提出的关于环境的观点非常重要。尤其是当你刚从高中毕业的时候，我记得我在选择大学的时候，没有人谈论过环境，每个人都在谈论成绩，你所获得的成绩是最好的。如果你看一下，你知道，甚至是网站，或者比如你去咨询，教育咨询，他们也会告诉你同样的事情，对吗？大部分都是关于排名的，就像你知道的，哪所学校的课程最适合你，你想读哪所学校的学位。而不太强调，好吧，这个环境如何与你的学习风格相匹配，比如你是谁或者你的个性？这些都很重要，对吗？当我们谈论女性在科学、技术、工程和数学领域的发展时，我们还必须考虑让她们能够发光发热、继续前进并有动力继续前进的有利条件。因为我们知道，很多女性实际上都退出了 STEM，对吗？她们可能会进入 STEM，但一路走来，她们很快就倦怠了。是的，因为偏见和所有这些。你感觉到了吗？你是在六年前完成本科学位的？现在回过头来看，你是否觉得在STEM学术界，女性比你刚出道时更受支持？

Shahira: I think so. I feel there is a changing tide. Like, for example, when I first started out, I received so much pushback, both, you know, from everyone who knew me, and even just from random strangers, like people just didn’t buy it if I said, I was studying mechanical engineering. And it sort of killed the conversation, because I think there was this disinterest of wanting to know more, maybe because it was backed by I don’t know, doubts or something. But nowadays, you see so many more initiatives to both bring women on board and to promote them. And I think that really helps foster a different feeling in the environment.

沙希拉：我想是的。我觉得潮流正在发生变化。比如说，我刚开始创业的时候，就受到了很多人的反对，有认识我的人，也有陌生人，如果我说我是学机械工程的，他们就不买账。这让我们的对话戛然而止，因为我觉得大家都不想知道更多，也许是因为我的想法背后有一些我不知道的疑虑或其他东西。但如今，你会看到有越来越多的举措来吸引女性加入，并促进她们的发展。我认为这确实有助于在环境中培养一种不同的感觉。

Thira: Oh, absolutely. Like, you don’t want to deal with imposter syndrome. Like, you know, it’s something that’s so difficult that everyone goes through at some point. But for women in STEM, you know, because of the numbers, the statistics that tell us, about how the field is at the moment, but I’m guessing that you have had, you might have had your fair share of feeling that way too, right? Doing a degree in mechanical engineering and then robotics, you know, that’s not easy. Across the field, in engineering, it’s probably one of the toughest fields. We really applaud you for doing that and achieving so much.

提拉 哦，当然。就像，你可不想患上冒名顶替综合症。就像，你知道，这是每个人都会经历的困难重重的事情。但对于从事 STEM 的女性来说，你知道，因为数字、统计数字告诉我们，这个领域目前的情况如何，但我猜你也有过，你可能也有过这种感觉，对吗？攻读机械工程学位，然后又攻读机器人技术，你知道，这并不容易。在整个工程领域，这可能是最艰难的领域之一。我们真的为你所做的一切和取得的成就喝彩。

Sofiya: When I think robotics, when I think mechanical engineering, these images evoke masculinity in a way. So it’s great that women are going forward with that. What do you think needs to change now though? I feel like we still have a long way to go.

Sofiya：当我想到机器人技术，当我想到机械工程，这些图像在某种程度上唤起了男子气概。所以，女性在这方面取得进展是很好的。你认为现在需要改变什么？我觉得我们还有很长的路要走。

Shahira: I think it can go from so many different stages, you know, right from childhood through to when they’re both starting in the workplace and at the higher levels. I mean, things that could be addressed from the school level, for example. Like, in my experience, despite excelling in all my science subjects and in math, I wasn’t seen as an engineer and I hadn’t considered it myself either, and I think that’s important because my school for example, did not offer the subject or doing things like hands-on circuits or soldiering. Maybe because it’s an all-girls school, so we got home economics instead. So perhaps things like from a younger age, maybe secondary level, maybe primary level, just simply having activities which are more hands-on and making them gender neutral, so students from everywhere could try their hand at different things and become more used to the skills involved. Because when it came to, for example, like programming, or, you know, working with hand tools, those were things I largely tried for the first time at university, and I love them so much, I took to them naturally, but I hadn’t even thought I would. It was just this crazy dream of trying out to be Tony Stark and seeing what life in London would look like, that led me to this point today. So that will be one of the things. And I suppose there’s a lot more to be said, for efforts that can be done at the workplace.

沙希拉：我认为可以从很多不同的阶段着手，你知道，从童年一直到他们开始进入职场和更高层次。我的意思是，比如说，从学校层面就可以解决的问题。以我的经历为例，尽管我的理科和数学成绩都很优秀，但我并没有被看作是一名工程师，我自己也没有想过要成为一名工程师，我认为这一点很重要，因为我所在的学校并没有开设这门课程，也没有进行动手电路或士兵训练等活动。也许因为那是一所女子学校，所以我们学的是家政学。因此，也许从低年级开始，也许是中学阶段，也许是小学阶段，就简单地开展一些动手能力更强的活动，并使这些活动不分性别，让来自不同地方的学生都能尝试不同的事情，并更习惯于其中的技能。因为，举例来说，当涉及到编程或使用手工工具时，这些都是我在大学里第一次尝试的东西，我非常喜欢它们，我很自然地就学会了它们，但我甚至没有想过我会这样做。就是这个疯狂的梦想，让我想成为托尼-斯塔克，看看伦敦的生活会是什么样子，让我走到了今天这一步。所以这将是其中一件事。我想，在工作场所可以做的努力还有很多。

Sofiya: I’m sure Tony Stark would be proud.

苏菲娅：我相信托尼·斯塔克会为你骄傲的。

Thira: I’m just curious, because up until this point, we’ve been talking so much about your studies, but now that you’re working, right, what’s your observation, as a woman in STEM in the workplace? Because now it’s it’s different. The culture is slightly different — from academia going to the workplace. From your experience, do you feel as if there’s an under-representation going on? Like, what kind of changes would you like to see in the workplace now that you know, you’re in it?

Thira: 我只是很好奇，因为到目前为止，我们一直在谈论你的学习，但现在你已经工作了，对吧，作为一名从事 STEM 的女性，你对工作场所有什么观察？因为现在情况不同了。从学术界到职场，文化略有不同。从你的经验来看，你觉得是否存在代表性不足的问题？既然你已经进入职场，你希望职场发生什么样的变化？

Shahira: I think, at least from my personal experience, I was quite impressed with how diverse my team is, and how lovely everyone has been. Perhaps someone with a different background might feel differently. I think that might be in part because I moved towards automation consulting, rather than petroleum engineering or staying in mechanical engineering itself. I think most people at heart mean well, and it’s just whether or not we create conditions that foster the growth of women as their career evolves.

沙希拉：我认为，至少从我个人的经历来看，我的团队是如此多元化，每个人都非常可爱，这给我留下了深刻印象。也许背景不同的人会有不同的感受。我想部分原因可能是我转向了自动化咨询，而不是石油工程或机械工程本身。我认为大多数人的出发点都是好的，关键在于我们是否创造条件，促进女性在职业发展过程中的成长。

Thira: So Shahira, if it were up to you, if you have the chance to run your own company or your own organisation, what would you do differently to encourage more women to participate and remain in the field?

Thira：那么Shahira，如果由你决定，如果你有机会经营自己的公司或组织，你会做些什么不同的事情来鼓励更多的女性参与并留在这个领域？

Shahira: I’m not sure if what I’m about to offer is a unique perspective necessarily, but I think, for example, hybrid work conditions offer more flexibility, and should definitely be considered where they’re possible. I think also, the practice of reducing the amount of personal information you’re required in an application is important. Things like not asking people to upload their photo, for example.

沙希拉：我不确定我接下来要说的是否一定是一个独特的视角，但我认为，比如说，混合工作条件提供了更多的灵活性，在可能的情况下，肯定应该予以考虑。我还认为，减少申请中所需个人信息的做法也很重要。例如，不要求人们上传照片。

Thira: That’s a great one. Because I feel like some companies do, especially more traditional structures, still practice that. And like personal information, especially for women, like your marital status, this whole practice of like, are you married or not? Or do you plan to have children or not, like that affects, your chances of getting employed?

蒂拉：这是一个伟大的。因为我觉得有些公司，尤其是更传统的结构，仍然这样做。比如个人信息，尤其是女性的个人信息，比如你的婚姻状况，比如你结婚了吗？或者你是否计划要孩子，这会影响你就业的机会吗？

Shahira: Like it’s not the case, at least where I reside right now in the UK. But I think I’ve definitely seen applications like that abroad.

Shahira：好像不是这样的，至少我现在住在英国。但我想我肯定在国外看到过这样的应用。

Sofiya: As a round-up, why is it important to have women in STEM like, why is that so necessary?

Sofiya：作为一个总结，为什么让女性参与STEM很重要，为什么这么有必要？

Shahira: Well, if you think of STEM as essentially designing solutions that help our society, having only one gender designing such products may overlook the needs of others. Whether it’s things like medical tools, used in healthcare or you know how car crash testing is done with dummies sized to the average man, resulting in higher statistics of injury to women, for example, during an accident. Or addressing the data bias in AI and how that has already impacted real people in America. And a second point, I think, will be more geared towards young women who are considering a career in STEM but might feel either intimidated or uncertain. I feel even if the road ahead may seem tougher, or may actually be tougher, it’s important to carve out that space for yourself and not lock yourself out of a field that is both lucrative and impactful to our society.

沙希拉：好吧，如果你认为 STEM 本质上是设计有助于我们社会的解决方案，那么只有一种性别来设计此类产品可能会忽视其他人的需求。不管是医疗保健领域使用的医疗工具，还是汽车碰撞测试中使用的假人尺寸与普通人相同，导致女性在事故中受伤的统计数字更高。或者解决人工智能中的数据偏差问题，以及这对美国真实的人们产生了怎样的影响。第二点，我认为将更多地面向那些正在考虑从事 STEM 行业，但可能会感到害怕或不确定的年轻女性。我觉得，即使前方的道路可能看起来更艰难，或者实际上可能更艰难，重要的是要为自己开辟出一片空间，不要把自己锁在一个既有利可图又对我们的社会有影响的领域之外。

Thira: I think it’s a very important point that you brought up, representation again. Like I know it sounds like something that is bandied about a lot in the media representation. I mean, it’s important, even yourself having gone through university, seeing other people like you in the same room, right? If you look at statistics of even women who are successful in STEM, it’s only a small concentration of them that are decision-makers. The people who are holding capital like investors, those who are pushing for innovation, tend to be men, right? So if we don’t have women on top or making the decisions, like all these things that you mentioned about products, about innovations that cater to women, they’re not going to come through. And if we don’t have women, it’s just going to get worse from here.

Thira: 我认为你提出的这一点非常重要，再次强调代表性。我知道这听起来像是媒体经常讨论的代表性问题。我的意思是，这很重要，即使是你自己，经历过大学生活，看到其他和你一样的人共处一室，对吗？如果你看一下在科技、工程和数学领域取得成功的女性的统计数据，她们中只有一小部分是决策者。那些掌握资本的人，比如投资者，那些推动创新的人，往往都是男性，对吗？因此，如果我们没有女性在高层或决策层，就像你提到的所有关于产品、关于迎合女性的创新的事情一样，它们就不会出现。如果没有女性，情况只会越来越糟。

Shahira: Yeah and I definitely think one of the points you brought up, it reminds me of how at least emancipation is very much dependent on having capital and your finances in order. So that is I think another reason why women should strongly consider the fields that are best rewarded, even if they’re more challenging. Besides, it also impacts society for the better.

沙希拉：是的，我肯定认为你提到的其中一点让我想起，至少解放在很大程度上取决于你是否拥有资本和良好的财务状况。因此，我认为这也是为什么女性应该大力考虑那些回报最好的领域的原因，即使它们更具挑战性。此外，这也会对社会产生更好的影响。

Sofiya: What would your advice be to young women kind of wanting to go in the same direction?

苏菲娅：对于那些想走同一条路的年轻女性，你有什么建议？

Shahira: I would reiterate how to make sure your universityor your early starting career a cultural match. You know, don’t underestimate the importance of choosing places that are not just welcoming to diversity, but that foster your growth. And secondly, I think it’s important to, as I said, create an active support network, and really put in that work to seek help when you feel you’re struggling. Because I think everyone will be there at one point, you’d be surprised how many out there would be happy to help you. Finally, I think it’s important to feel comfortable or to grow into being comfortable taking up space. Whether that means speaking up in class to ask questions or in presentations or choosing the subjects that you like without feeling daunted, and presenting yourself authentically as you are with your own identity. I think that matters because you should be seen. If there is any shade of change to be made in this field, we need to see diversity in people.

沙希拉：我要重申的是，如何确保你的大学或你早期的职业生涯与文化相匹配。你知道，不要低估选择那些不仅欢迎多元化，而且能促进你成长的地方的重要性。其次，我认为重要的是，正如我所说的，建立一个积极的支持网络，并在你感到挣扎的时候真正努力寻求帮助。因为我认为每个人都会有这样的时候，你会惊讶于有多少人乐意帮助你。最后，我认为重要的是，要让自己感觉舒适，或者成长为能够自如地占据空间的人。这意味着在课堂上或在演讲中大胆提问，或选择自己喜欢的科目而不感到畏惧，以及真实地展示自己的身份。我认为这很重要，因为你应该被看到。如果要在这个领域做出任何改变，我们需要看到人们的多样性。

Thira: Right, wise words, Shahira. Thank you so much for joining us on today’s podcast. This was an episode for “Extra Credit.”. I am Thira.

”““明智的话，Shahira。非常感谢你参加今天的播客。这是《额外学分》的一集。我是提拉

Sofiya: I’m Sofiya and we hope you enjoyed this podcast.

Sofiya：我是Sofiya，我们希望你喜欢这个播客。

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